Passing by the spanking new Saifee Hospital in South Bombay, I saw this quote in bold just above their main entrance. “When I fall ill, He cures.”
Aha, an old repetition of “It’s God that does the curing, doctors are just His tools.”
I find such statements preposterous. And very illogical. Let me explain.
For those who believe in God, he has been around since the beginning of creation. But most of the great medical advances have happened in the last 100 years or so. Leads me to two possible conclusions.
- God does not really care. If he did, people would not have to suffer various ailments, and one who have not have seen medicine advancing only in the last century. We would have seen complex medical procedures like open heart surgery and chemotherapy happening from the beginning of time (or, at least, much earlier).
One also wonders why a caring God would allow the medical condition in the first place. Surely prevention is better than cure? And of course, some people die despite good medical care, so God probably doesn’t care too much.
And, if God exists, but is unable to intervene, then he isn’t much of a God anyway.
- There is no God. Medical advances are due to the slow collection of knowledge accumulated by humans over centuries. There was a tipping point sometime during the 20th Century, which lead to a big jump in medical treatment and cures. We still are unable to cure many diseases and conditions, but as we aggregate more knowledge and use it, we would be closer to curing these as well.
I am convinced that #2 is the answer. I don’t accept either “God is testing your faith” or “God wants it to happen that way” as they are circular. Anything unpalateable can be explained with these grab-bags.
What do you think? Are there any other conclusions, which I may have missed out?
(With thanks to MadMan for useful inputs)
30 Responses to “He cures!”
- 1 Trackback on Jun 17th, 2005 at 8:08 pm
- 2 Trackback on Jun 25th, 2005 at 10:27 pm
- 3 Trackback on Jun 27th, 2005 at 6:50 pm
I think you’ve got to clarify your definition of God. The way I see it, God is the sum total of all things that cannot be rationally explained by man. So a God by definition doesnt have to be “good” and “caring”, and hence I dont see anything wrong in the concept of an uncaring God - which would mean the first possibility that you’ve listed is quite possibly true. So how can you say so surely that Option 2 is the correct one?
Aha, indeed! Another aha — at least for me — is that, ultimately, one’s faith in god just that: a faith.
What you have done here is to take one practical observation, and show that it is logically inconsistent with certain characteristics of god. This is a pointless exercise because a believer can then cite some other characteristic (as Varath has done: “God is the sum total of all things that cannot be rationally explained by man”), and tell you that there is no inconsistency at all.
Suppose some ‘believer’ comes along and says eclipses happen when a cosmic snake swallows the moon/sun — just to spit it out after a few minutes — you wouldn’t try to use logic to disprove it, would you? Instead, you would ask that person to provide a proof for his/her belief.
IMHO, a belief or faith in god should be treated exactly the same way: the onus should be on the believers to prove the existence of god — using logic/science — to convince the non-believers. Now, *that* would be lots of fun …
And, if God exists, but is unable to intervene, then he isn’t much of a God anyway.
This is as circular as you have accused the other arguments of.
Let us for the sake of argument assume that the grandiose equation that is the TOE is actually God and every root(which can quite easily run to infinity) be an event. Tell me how is such an equation which is passive not worth much?
P.S. : Am no theist and do not believe there exists a TOE either. Am just trying to point that your initial definition does leave a lot of scope for theists to get back.
Try this on for size a no. 3 to your two over simplified scenarios:
3. God does exist. He is omipotent and powerful but he doesn’t really care about you or me or all of humanity for that matter - no more than we’d care for a sample of bacteria growing on a dish in a lab but we could still toss then whole thing in the trash.
Now this is not necessarily what I believe but seems plausible.
I have been following Yazad’s musings on god and religion and frankly, I don’t care whether or not god exists, and I see no point in debating this. That’s real atheism. Or probably atheist is not the right word for me to describe myself: I just don’t think about god and religion. It’s a waste of time for me to ponder over them. If I had seen that sign outside the hospital, it wouldn’t have bothered me enough to blog about it. I do understand why it’s up there, and why it will be for a long time to come.
Shivam
well i agree with varath .. the concept of god is that of something infinite which is beyond the scope of a finite human mind.
There are many things which even the laws of physics cannot prove.
How does science explain that there are three heavy stones at rameshwaram floating on water since ages (without sinking), which were supposedly used by Rama and his sena as a foundation stone to build a bridge between India and Sri Lanka (something which NASA’s satellite has captured)
I am just giving a simple example which is seemingly illogical, but it is TRUE. You can find those three stones even today.
Shivam says: frankly, I don’t care whether or not god exists, and I see no point in debating this. That’s real atheism.
Not that I’m going to go on too long pressing this (I don’t care to!) … but that’s not real atheism, but real agnosticism. The agnostic doesn’t care whether god exists, and sees no point debating it. The atheist is convinced that god does not exist: a position that agnostics find an irrational as claiming she DOES exist.
Gos is SHE
Atlest that explains multiple orgasms :-|
Varath, You say “God is the sum total of all things that cannot be rationally explained by man” I.e. God=Unexplained phenomena
But a lot of medical science can be explained. Most cures can, and even failures can be explained.
Anyway, option 1 is something I am not convinced about. It is, however, a valid logical option. I was looking for other options apart from the two I mentioned.
Abi, I agree. Ever noticed how offended theists get when you ask for “proof”?
Nilu, I’ll skip the physics, but watering God’s powers makes him rather human, and not “Godly” at all. Superhuman powers are an essential feature of God. Otherwise in what way is the God different from us ordinary mortals?
Ck, You’ve just rephrased my option 1. you haven’t given me a distict new option.
JM, you’re talking about what is most probably a man-made bridge. There’s no proof linking the Ramayana to the bridge. Of course, there might have been a great king of the era and I think parts of the epic might be inspired by real events with some “masala” thrown in to make it divine. All said and done, you’re talking about a chain of limestone shoals. In what way is that divine or unexplained?
Shivam, Dilip, I have no quarrel with agnostics. I was one for more than a decade!
Gaurav, Hmmmmmmm. Are you saying you’ve never experienced multiple orgasms? ;-)
Superhuman powers are an essential feature of God
If you define God to be that you are only providing fodder for theists. There are many groups of theists - most notably Advatins who do not attribute such powers to this God guy and rant about an illusion that this world is.
Leaving all the theology and Physics aside, your limited definition would be seen by them as an inability to “understand” God. Good luck with those who will try and “open your eyes”.
Yazad,
There can be no proof for God as there is no agreed upon definition of God.
Ultimately it is your call.
Why people prefer to believe in God is
1 They need it. (In a way, it is the (wo)man who creates the God in his(her)own image)
2. It is easier that way to deal with Cosmos (which is a maddening infinity )
As you said there are many thing that can be explained.Unfortunately, there are a lot many things which can not be explained (Michael Jackson is one of them ;-))and always will remain so.
Therefore, I think the best way is to let the God(s) rest in their abode and dont disturb them too much.
By the way I believe in God but too lazy to worship what is that called ???
About multiple orgasms lets store the discussion for those dull nights when it seems whatever had to be discussed has been exhaused.
Point taken.
But how do you explain those supposedly special heavy unanchored stones which are floating on water even today in Rameshwaram? It would have give Newton some sleepless nights.
Dilip, Yazad:
I am not an agnostic. This is from dictionary.com:
a)One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b)One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
I am thoroughly convinced that God does not exist.
When I say I don’t care, I mean I won’t go to the extent of arguing about atheism with anyone as see it as pointless. My atheism is a matter of belief and faith for me! And just as some people want to just follow their religion and refuse to debate about it, I am happy as an atheist, but any kind of arguments about atheism-vs-anything-else put me off.
I propose that you claim to be God. Anybody who dares to challenge you can be easily dismissed as a heretic, a non-believer and such. And if anybody asks why the world is today, simply answer that you work in mysterious ways, and it is beyond the average human’s power to grasp you in all your glory. Then, skip town with all the donations you’re given, and send me my cut. Thank you, that will be all.
Tarun/TTG, I don’tknow who your comment was addressed to, but I don’t mind agreeing with you. I hereby declare that I Am God.
Follow me…
As Woody Allen said, “If only God gave some clear evidence of His existence, like depositing a few thousand dollars in my savings account….. “
Via Pharyngula, I found this from a piece by Richard Colling:
[begin quote]
If history teaches any lesson, it is this: As understanding in science and biology inexorably march on, the perceived scientific mysteries of today will inevitably give way to well-understood processes, and science will systematically erase the prospects of a designer — one data point at a time.
[end quote]
Just thought it might be relevant to this discussion …
And thus the god of the gaps gets smaller and smaller…
Unfortunately,
Infinity minus one is still infinity ;-)
Game On.
1) God probably doesn’t care too much….And, if God exists, but is unable to intervene, then he isn’t much of a God anyway.
2) There is no God.
Why is so difficult for people to accept there is a god, or that god must intervene to solve problems!
The most common questions I have heard are along the lines of : Why does god not help put an end to the misery people are in? Why does god not prevent such misery from every happening?
Is it so difficult to understand why? Think of your relation to god as of a child to a parent. Perhaps things will start to fall into place.
If you could shield your child from all misery in life, would you? If you could provide your child with everything s/he would every want, even without asking, would you?
Ever wonder, like a true loving parent, perhaps god wants you to grow, learn and be independent? Do you think you could really grow and mature if you had everything given to you on a platter or would you end up a spoiled brat, with no self esteem and no desire to achieve anything?
God does not test your faith. God does not ‘need’ to test your faith. It is the individual who keeps testing his own faith. God loves a person anyway, just like a parent ( more like a mother).
Does this prove there is god? No, it does not, but then saying there is misery also does not prove there is no god.
If everything or every relation need proof to be believed in, then most of relations would not be believed to be true. If you are a parent, then would you say that your child of, say a year or two, has proof that you love him? Can the child prove that his parents love him or is it just a feeling, which is not even about faith or trust, all it is, and is feeling. Can the parent explain to the child that the child is loved? All the parent can do is love and know the child does not understand it yet, but in time will.
But I would like to think, if one believes there is god, then the very point that god does not use his powers to go about preventing or curing problems shows that god does care.
Yes, there is a God…when you see your thoughts transformed into “reality”…when you see the syncronicity that surrounds you, you will know God.
GOD AND TIME
Debate about the existence of God is often misguided. The question to ask first is not “Does God exist?” The correct question to ask is “Is there a ‘begining of the universe’?” There are three and only three possible scenarios. I will start by defining God as “the unknown force responsible for the creation of the universe.”
A.) Time is finite and the universe is finite.
{time & universe begin–may or may not end}>
This implies a hands on approach to creation.
B.) Time is infinite and the universe is finite.
C. Time is infinite and the universe is either infinite or in some way cyclic.
or
I think that scenarios B and C are the most likely.
This is the important part. For scenario B to be true; God, as I have defined it, must exist. There is no explanation for a begining of the universe while time is infinite other than an unknown force to get the ball rolling. Otherwise, why wouldn’t the universe have started earlier. We are talking about billions upon billions of years. Something must have happened.
If scenario C is true, there is no need for the concept of god in order to explain how the world works.
Just a minor addition to scenario A)
(time begins-{–}time ends)
The Babel fish, is small, yellow, and leechlike, and probably the oddest thing in the universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it.It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centers of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish. Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything that mindbogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God. The argument goes something like this: “I refuse to prove that I exist,” says God, “for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.” “But,” says man, “the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn´t it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don´t. QED.” “Oh dear,” says God, “I hadn´t thought of that,” and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. “Oh, that was easy,” says man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing. Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo´s kidneys, but that didn´t stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his best-selling book, Well That about Wraps It Up for God. Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation. -Wonko -The Guide -DNA
— From H2G2*
* to the uninitiated, H2G2 is the acronym for Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy
While I was in high school, our maths teacher told us this -
many years ago a mathematician discovered that “e raised to i pi plus one equals zero” and exclaimed “GOD exists!!!”
“pi” was discovered more than 5000 years ago, e was discovered probably in the last 5-600 years, i is a very recent discovery. Zero was also discoverd hundreds of years ago. and the fact that all these 3 entities, discovered over such a great range in time, were connected by such a simple and beautiful expression must be by a divine design! Have you seen a hummingbird? If you look at one, it will make you wonder who could have come up with the idea of a hummingbird. Or think of how complex and intricate the operation of an eye is. It is easy to accept that someone is responsible for all this and we bow to that ONE.
The title song from Shyam Benegal’s Bharat Ek Khoj is a wonderful song - http://www.mumbai-central.com/nukkad/oct2003/msg00135.html
That’s real atheism. Or probably atheist is not the right word for me to describe myself: I just don’t think about god and religion. It’s a waste of time for me to ponder over them. If I had seen that sign outside the hospital, it wouldn’t have bothered me enough to blog about it.
O.K. for all of you non-believers.Where does time come from? no one knows.Where does the big bang that supposedly started it all come from? no one knows.Existince and time just don’t come from no where.Where did the black void that exploded into the big bang come from? And if we evolved from single cell organisms millions of years ago in which some scientist believe wouldn’t we have found life on another planet or wouldn’t it have done found us? The universe is billions of years old and there is trillions and trillions of stars and planets.And God says he created no others but us.So if there is no God,out of a number that large I believe we would have done found life or it would have found us.Nothing just dosn’t come from nothing!And so I firmly believe in God!!If you have any comments or questions regarding my statment I would be glad to respond.Thanks for reading.