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	<title>Comments on: Taking this forward</title>
	<link>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/</link>
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	<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 15:00:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Sunil</title>
		<link>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1552</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1552</guid>
					<description>I have thought of another definition for &quot;human rights&quot;, which I would like to test out. 

I define all human rights as a set of &quot;mutually exclusive&quot; and &quot;collective exhaustive&quot; actions that human beings can legitimately wish to perform. 
But one would say that there is bound to be a lot of overlap. But all overlaps can be removed using certain priniples. 

So, if I say that I have a right to snatch Gaurav's purse, it infringes on his right to keep his own purse. Thus there is a conflict. 
Also, if I say that I have a right to a job, then I am infringing on some employers right to employ a person of his choice. Again, a conflict. These rights are obviously not mutually exclusive.

The way to resolve these conflicts is to use the principle of &quot;ownership&quot;. Thus, Gauravs ownership of the purse, and the employers ownership of the job render my rights stated above inferior. 

But this is all very easy so far. What if two people are both thrown overboard from a ship, and there is only one lifejacket, which neither of them owns. 
In this case, there is no ownership. So neither of them have a right to use the jacket. But both have a right to pursue the jacket to save their own lives. It is obvious in this case that one of them will die. But does this mean that the survivor has infringed upon the dead persons right to live? Not really! In this case, both of them only had a right to &quot;try to save oneself&quot;. These rights are mutually exclusive, so essentially there is no conflict.

Any loophole in the above definition?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have thought of another definition for &#8220;human rights&#8221;, which I would like to test out. </p>
<p>I define all human rights as a set of &#8220;mutually exclusive&#8221; and &#8220;collective exhaustive&#8221; actions that human beings can legitimately wish to perform.<br />
But one would say that there is bound to be a lot of overlap. But all overlaps can be removed using certain priniples. </p>
<p>So, if I say that I have a right to snatch Gaurav&#8217;s purse, it infringes on his right to keep his own purse. Thus there is a conflict.<br />
Also, if I say that I have a right to a job, then I am infringing on some employers right to employ a person of his choice. Again, a conflict. These rights are obviously not mutually exclusive.</p>
<p>The way to resolve these conflicts is to use the principle of &#8220;ownership&#8221;. Thus, Gauravs ownership of the purse, and the employers ownership of the job render my rights stated above inferior. </p>
<p>But this is all very easy so far. What if two people are both thrown overboard from a ship, and there is only one lifejacket, which neither of them owns.<br />
In this case, there is no ownership. So neither of them have a right to use the jacket. But both have a right to pursue the jacket to save their own lives. It is obvious in this case that one of them will die. But does this mean that the survivor has infringed upon the dead persons right to live? Not really! In this case, both of them only had a right to &#8220;try to save oneself&#8221;. These rights are mutually exclusive, so essentially there is no conflict.</p>
<p>Any loophole in the above definition?
</p>
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		<title>by: Gautam</title>
		<link>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1553</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1553</guid>
					<description>Since we are talking about personal outlooks on this concept and not formal definitions, I think I'd disagree with you, Gaurav. 

I see rights as either positive or negative. The former guarantees that you are provided with some good or service, the latter guarantees that you are not deprived of your rights. 

So the Right to Food or Education is a positive right, it involves something being taken away from someone else to give it to the recipient. The Right to Life, Liberty and Property on the other hand ensures that you are not deprived of something you already have. 

So when you talk about slitting Ck's throat, as a right it is a positive right, you are not born with the intrinsic right to slit his throat. In my opinion right's ensured under the law should ideally be negative rights, that protect, rather than provide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since we are talking about personal outlooks on this concept and not formal definitions, I think I&#8217;d disagree with you, Gaurav. </p>
<p>I see rights as either positive or negative. The former guarantees that you are provided with some good or service, the latter guarantees that you are not deprived of your rights. </p>
<p>So the Right to Food or Education is a positive right, it involves something being taken away from someone else to give it to the recipient. The Right to Life, Liberty and Property on the other hand ensures that you are not deprived of something you already have. </p>
<p>So when you talk about slitting Ck&#8217;s throat, as a right it is a positive right, you are not born with the intrinsic right to slit his throat. In my opinion right&#8217;s ensured under the law should ideally be negative rights, that protect, rather than provide.
</p>
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		<title>by: seven_times_six</title>
		<link>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1554</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1554</guid>
					<description>Gautam: He is born with the intrinsic right to swing his arm. an arm holding a knife. a knife pointing towards Ck's throat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gautam: He is born with the intrinsic right to swing his arm. an arm holding a knife. a knife pointing towards Ck&#8217;s throat.
</p>
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		<title>by: seven_times_six</title>
		<link>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1555</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1555</guid>
					<description>Gaurav: So you agree that for spontaneous order, there has to be a departure from libertarianism?

e.g. the council shall have to have power. Why should people with &quot;rights&quot; listen to it otherwise? How does it get this power? Whether brute force (aka monarchy) or by majority force (aka democracy) the net result is that the wishes/rights of some receive more importance 
than others. e.g. if the majority think hot pants are sleazy and should be banned, the minority ends up having to accept that because of the 'council' and where it gets its power from.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gaurav: So you agree that for spontaneous order, there has to be a departure from libertarianism?</p>
<p>e.g. the council shall have to have power. Why should people with &#8220;rights&#8221; listen to it otherwise? How does it get this power? Whether brute force (aka monarchy) or by majority force (aka democracy) the net result is that the wishes/rights of some receive more importance<br />
than others. e.g. if the majority think hot pants are sleazy and should be banned, the minority ends up having to accept that because of the &#8216;council&#8217; and where it gets its power from.
</p>
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		<title>by: Sunil</title>
		<link>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1556</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1556</guid>
					<description>7*6 : The council only exists to ensure that individual rights are enforced. It does not have the mandate to decide what is a right! 
So tomorrow if the majority decides that every woman in the country has to wear a burkha, that does not make it right!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>7*6 : The council only exists to ensure that individual rights are enforced. It does not have the mandate to decide what is a right!<br />
So tomorrow if the majority decides that every woman in the country has to wear a burkha, that does not make it right!
</p>
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		<title>by: rick</title>
		<link>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1557</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1557</guid>
					<description>A &quot;right&quot; is an action that can be taken by an individual without needing permission from any other individual or entity. An individual has just one basic &quot;right&quot;, and that is the right to his or her own life. No individual may demand a &quot;right&quot; that conflicts with any other individuals right to his own life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A &#8220;right&#8221; is an action that can be taken by an individual without needing permission from any other individual or entity. An individual has just one basic &#8220;right&#8221;, and that is the right to his or her own life. No individual may demand a &#8220;right&#8221; that conflicts with any other individuals right to his own life.
</p>
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		<title>by: Sameer</title>
		<link>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1558</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1558</guid>
					<description>Gaurav, how is slitting CK's throat your right? Isn't it too pedantic a definition of a right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gaurav, how is slitting CK&#8217;s throat your right? Isn&#8217;t it too pedantic a definition of a right?
</p>
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		<title>by: seven_times_six</title>
		<link>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1559</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1559</guid>
					<description>Sunil - I am just following Gaurav's model wherein 
all actions fall under the purview of rights of category 1 or 2. The council then, is arbitrating between various rights e.g. - right to slit a throat vs right to life etc.

In your example - the right to subjugate my woman
by burkhafying her WOULD be enforced against other rights if that is what the council deems to be more important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sunil - I am just following Gaurav&#8217;s model wherein<br />
all actions fall under the purview of rights of category 1 or 2. The council then, is arbitrating between various rights e.g. - right to slit a throat vs right to life etc.</p>
<p>In your example - the right to subjugate my woman<br />
by burkhafying her WOULD be enforced against other rights if that is what the council deems to be more important.
</p>
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		<title>by: Prakash</title>
		<link>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1560</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1560</guid>
					<description>I think that apart from the traditional definition of rights, there are other factors to consider. Why does the boundary of rights end at human beings?

The human's &quot;right&quot; to hunt an animal conflicts with the animal's right to be simply left alone. (which many would agree is a basic right in humans)

If we say that rights are only for humans, how will we defend ourselves when being taken as slaves by say, superior aliens or AIs, who belive that rights are only for them?

Q.2 - If a person is left in the middle of the atlantic ocean and  told that he has the freedom to walk home, does that make any sense? similarly, if in a society where all land has already been appropriated, what rights can the newly born possibly have? We say that he has the right to live - But live where? and live how? Does it make sense to talk of the right to live without the right to a portion of the earth where one might live and work?

(full disclosure - I am a libertarian, but a very rare variety called geo-libertarian. i believe in a highly decentralised minarchy sustained by the appropriation of the rent on natural resources)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that apart from the traditional definition of rights, there are other factors to consider. Why does the boundary of rights end at human beings?</p>
<p>The human&#8217;s &#8220;right&#8221; to hunt an animal conflicts with the animal&#8217;s right to be simply left alone. (which many would agree is a basic right in humans)</p>
<p>If we say that rights are only for humans, how will we defend ourselves when being taken as slaves by say, superior aliens or AIs, who belive that rights are only for them?</p>
<p>Q.2 - If a person is left in the middle of the atlantic ocean and  told that he has the freedom to walk home, does that make any sense? similarly, if in a society where all land has already been appropriated, what rights can the newly born possibly have? We say that he has the right to live - But live where? and live how? Does it make sense to talk of the right to live without the right to a portion of the earth where one might live and work?</p>
<p>(full disclosure - I am a libertarian, but a very rare variety called geo-libertarian. i believe in a highly decentralised minarchy sustained by the appropriation of the rent on natural resources)
</p>
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		<title>by: rick</title>
		<link>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1561</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.yazadjal.com/2004/06/11/taking-this-forward/#comment-1561</guid>
					<description>See.......private property</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See&#8230;&#8230;.private property
</p>
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