You’ve also failed to calculate the social costs I have to pay at an intersection each time some maniac goes haring through a red light. The reason why I get from point A to point be so fast and so efficiently in Seattle is because when the light turns green I just step on the gas because I know all oncoming traffic is stopped. That is efficient and effective. This case of Spontaneous Order is clearly not.

The police may be corrupt but you only hae to mess with them if you break the law. You obey the law stop when required, go only as fast as permitted and that is the most efficient way to move yourself through traffic.

The only person who would think that Spontaneous Order is an effective traffic solution has obviously never seen a crowded free way. It might well work out for bullock carts on a village road but to think you can apply it to complex traffic patterns and expect everything to turn out just fine is just plain ridiculous.

Spontaneous Order does not mean an absence of rules or order. It just means that these rules / regulations are developed spontaneously from countless interactions by individuals, not imposed by some “ruler.”

We have realized that it is far easier to tell everybody to drive on one side of the road than wait for a millin accidents and a thousand deaths before traffic lanes are “spontaneously” established.

It just makes more sense if everybody stops at a red light and we punish those who don’t rather than let people interpret light colors any way they wish - hey maybe in your spontaneous society green will mean go but why wait.

As in nature if you let the rules get established spontaneously, the rule survival of the fittest begins to apply. In the case of traffic, the person driving the biggest SUV will always get right of way while the folks driving the little Honda Civis will live in perpetual fear of their lives peeping around from corners on green lights hoping and praying that if they go ahead a big Hummer doesn’t run them over.

But well done Yazad. This is one of your more ridiculous completely unimplementable ideas but then that’s par for the course for you - actually this one is a birdie! ;)

This is just the start. I am keen to note what the results will be 6-12 months down the line.

You’ve been screaming hoarse all these years with the “unimplementable / not pratical” mantra. What’s happening in Ecatepec is maybe a small example of spontaneous order, but we’re seeing it implemented. Let’s wait and watch.

But before you get all excited and dance the hula around spontaneous order you should probably find out a little about Ecatepec.

Population: about 1 million (the size of Bandra maybe?)
Houses: err..none 90% slums
Cars: unknown
GDP: one of the lowest in urban Mexico.

So when they implement you ideas in LA or New York I will join you in your little dance but I wouldn’t get too excited about the implementation of ‘practical’ spontaneous order in a little slum on the outskirts of Mexico City….no, facts have never been your strong point ;) they’re so real and get in the way of so many lovely theories.

2. Give us the source of your facts. Including the definition of the term “slum” used by you.

3. A population of 1 million is big. Actually what I’ve checked on the net (perfunctory I admit) gives me figures between 1.2 to 1.6 million.

4. I’m just waiting and watching. You’re the one with the florid words “dancing the hula” and the facts like “one of the lowest in urban Mexico.”

Really. How interesting. In a collision situation do you think a 2000 lb Honda is “fitter” than a 2 ton SUV? Of course the libertarian solution would be that everybody drive a SUV, then the one with the better air bag will be fitter. Wouldn’t it just be easier if everybody stopped when the light was red and went when it was green. But perhaps this simple solution makes way too much sense especialyy when it (god forbid) involves a regulation.

2. Give us the source of your facts. Including the definition of the term “slum” used by you.

Well try typing in Ecatepec and slum in google. A cursory scan reveals that everybody - the Mexican government, the United Nations, the World Banks and the Holy Roman Catholic Church refers to it as a “slum”. You are welcome to disagree with all of these institutions as to what describes a slum.

3. A population of 1 million is big. Actually what I’ve checked on the net (perfunctory I admit) gives me figures between 1.2 to 1.6 million.

If you insist. Refer to http://www.fantasyfacup.com/matthew/essays/urbmex.htm
you will notice that in your “big” ppulation of 1.2-1.6 million over 800,000 do not live in houses (please feel free to question my definition of “house” but typically a tarpaulin and platic do not constitute a house to the rest of the world but maybe they do in the anarch-capitalist0liber-whatever context).

Do let me know if I am overloading you with facts. I know it can be most disturbing to your pet theory. Since you appear to be wholly in support of the above action by the mayor can you provide us the most basic of facts - what was the accident rate before the law was passed and what is it after. I would be very interested to know if you can get a hold of it.